The misguided puritans
More reaction to the stabbing in front of the Woodbine Hotel, which was "just one of a number of violent altercations that have taken place outside low-rent bars in the downtown recently," (three being the number, occurring in three separate neighborhoods, one of which is the North End, another being in what is only nominally downtown at Main and Henry Ave.)
"Downtown: Dealing with drunks, pushy panhandlers" - WFP
Similar to how the Downtown BIZ deals more with homeless men and women who walk into the Tim Horton's on Fort and Graham instead of dealing with the bangers brazenly slinging crack in Portage Place and along Portage Avenue from Carlton to Edmonton, people will go after the owners of these old vestiges of Winnipeg's growth and prosperity because they're easy targets: they don't golf together, they don't sit on boards together, they don't have money and favors tied up with each-other, and hotel owners don't buy advertising. Political allies didn't have a hand in creating those hotels, their owners don't control the funding taps, and downtown was not "reborn" when they opened.
No one is willing (or able) to begin to see the problem at it's core, which is the state of moral and economic decline of downtown Winnipeg, which began long before gruff and intimidating panhandlers became a fixture on Main Street, nevermind Portage Ave.
One relatively easy thing that could be done to mitigate the problem being complained about by Centre Venture or David Rattray, is to end the antiquated monopoly of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission, who fuse the worst aspects of socialism and Victorianism, and play gangster and cop all at once. Imagine if Al Capone and Elliot Ness worked together: that's the MLCC.
As someone commented on the Free Press story: "Many other provinces separate the liquor licensing agency from the liquor distribution agency. Probably we in Manitoba should do the same thing. Have the MLCC only handle licensing and control. Have a new Manitoba Liquor Distribution agency to handle liquor imports and
sales."
Far better yet would be to get the government out of the distribution and sales industry altogether. Separate the conflict between selling beer and enforcing laws, and Winnipeg will have not only a more responsive liquor commission, but a freer market that un-slums the business of buying and selling alcohol downtown.
Making the owner of the Garrick or Woodbine the whipping boys will do nothing. Close them down, and the unsavory characters move over to the Vendome, the Windsor, or the McLaren. Close them all down, and the use of non-potables rise (higher than it was prior to the introduction of $2 king cans several years ago), and the decline of the big, nice downtown hotels will only accelerate their current decline. (Tragically, the gorgeous Marlborough Hotel is currently in a state the McLaren Hotel would have been at circa 1970.)
***
It's best not to take too much stock in comments on CBC Manitoba, but here's some from yesterday's story on the Woodbine:
"I am much more wary of going to Portage Place than I would be of walking by the Woodbine, because there are far more incidents that happen at Portage Place. I would like to see something done about the crime there, starting with cleaning up the drug dealing that goes on in the food court."
"Why not focus more on the drug dealing and violence happening in and around Portage Place? That's a much bigger concern for me as a downtown resident."
"There are more incidents at Portage Place than at the Woodbine but Centre Venture stays silent on that."
"The Woodbine has its share of sketchiness, but I'll add my vote to those who would make Portage Place a priority, after seeing someone blatantly shoplift a large purse in front of me this past weekend, then waiting fifteen minutes while security casually made its way to the store in question..."
"I also agree... that Portage Place is a serious problem... and will not go there AT ALL!! Geez they have shootings there at 1 in the afternoon. The last time I was in the Food court, I counted 5 drug deals go down and one of them was to a security guard for the mall!!"
"Downtown: Dealing with drunks, pushy panhandlers" - WFP
Similar to how the Downtown BIZ deals more with homeless men and women who walk into the Tim Horton's on Fort and Graham instead of dealing with the bangers brazenly slinging crack in Portage Place and along Portage Avenue from Carlton to Edmonton, people will go after the owners of these old vestiges of Winnipeg's growth and prosperity because they're easy targets: they don't golf together, they don't sit on boards together, they don't have money and favors tied up with each-other, and hotel owners don't buy advertising. Political allies didn't have a hand in creating those hotels, their owners don't control the funding taps, and downtown was not "reborn" when they opened.
No one is willing (or able) to begin to see the problem at it's core, which is the state of moral and economic decline of downtown Winnipeg, which began long before gruff and intimidating panhandlers became a fixture on Main Street, nevermind Portage Ave.
One relatively easy thing that could be done to mitigate the problem being complained about by Centre Venture or David Rattray, is to end the antiquated monopoly of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission, who fuse the worst aspects of socialism and Victorianism, and play gangster and cop all at once. Imagine if Al Capone and Elliot Ness worked together: that's the MLCC.
As someone commented on the Free Press story: "Many other provinces separate the liquor licensing agency from the liquor distribution agency. Probably we in Manitoba should do the same thing. Have the MLCC only handle licensing and control. Have a new Manitoba Liquor Distribution agency to handle liquor imports and
sales." Far better yet would be to get the government out of the distribution and sales industry altogether. Separate the conflict between selling beer and enforcing laws, and Winnipeg will have not only a more responsive liquor commission, but a freer market that un-slums the business of buying and selling alcohol downtown.
Making the owner of the Garrick or Woodbine the whipping boys will do nothing. Close them down, and the unsavory characters move over to the Vendome, the Windsor, or the McLaren. Close them all down, and the use of non-potables rise (higher than it was prior to the introduction of $2 king cans several years ago), and the decline of the big, nice downtown hotels will only accelerate their current decline. (Tragically, the gorgeous Marlborough Hotel is currently in a state the McLaren Hotel would have been at circa 1970.)
***
It's best not to take too much stock in comments on CBC Manitoba, but here's some from yesterday's story on the Woodbine:
"I am much more wary of going to Portage Place than I would be of walking by the Woodbine, because there are far more incidents that happen at Portage Place. I would like to see something done about the crime there, starting with cleaning up the drug dealing that goes on in the food court."
"Why not focus more on the drug dealing and violence happening in and around Portage Place? That's a much bigger concern for me as a downtown resident."
"There are more incidents at Portage Place than at the Woodbine but Centre Venture stays silent on that."
"The Woodbine has its share of sketchiness, but I'll add my vote to those who would make Portage Place a priority, after seeing someone blatantly shoplift a large purse in front of me this past weekend, then waiting fifteen minutes while security casually made its way to the store in question..."
"I also agree... that Portage Place is a serious problem... and will not go there AT ALL!! Geez they have shootings there at 1 in the afternoon. The last time I was in the Food court, I counted 5 drug deals go down and one of them was to a security guard for the mall!!"
posted by The Rise and Sprawl at
10:25 AM
13 Comments:
I agree 99% with the overall content of this post, especially with the MLCC concerns and the Portage Place comments, since the drug deals done and the classic runner systems are painfully obvious to anyone regularly visiting the place.
But for the first time I can remember, Rob, I have to disagree with you - specifically, with the sentiment in your headline, "misguided puritans." The headline matters because it says "what problem are we trying to solve?" This isn't a puritan thing; the fair and sane response is to attack both the problems in Portage Place and everywhere else downtown for that matter, and respect the fact that real people are being excluded from real public spaces by real threats and real abuse. Stranger still, the supposed "puritans" in the Garrick example in this story are people who are living, working and investing in downtown, exactly as you hope they'd do. Why not listen to them for a change - surely they've earned a listen more than many of the clowns making policy who haven't set foot downtown in years?
I never understood the new urbanist mentality that says "we want more people, more families living downtown" on the one hand, but rushes to say "but only if you're tough enough to take whatever happens without complaint" on the other. And I live downtown, so I can assure you that this has nothing to do with the boards I sit on or who I have lunch with. Rather, it has to do with the fact that behavior I see every day on my way to work wouldn't be tolerated in many other (more vibrant) downtowns I've seen or lived in.
Don't forget: while the article may only list three incidents, these are just the ones that get reported. The number of so-called 'smaller' incidents is much, much higher.
TEAR DOWN PORTAGE PLACE! RE-OPEN EDMONTON AND KENNEDY STREETS!
thank you.
the cops have busted 78 punks at portage place in the last month.
its a no go zone for drug peddlers.
i hope they push it to main street in front of the new wrha building.
Rooming houses which housed the poor drunks and crack addicats were erradicated in your neighbirhood. The properties were rennovated for a better use. And your community is better for it.
Not sure what your point is here.
Getting rid of the drunks and bringing the building back to its glory is pretty much what is needed.
Anon 3:04, I am not saying that people should "toughen up" and learn to live with whatever incivility they might encounter downtown, I am saying that this kind of "get tough on the hotels" is misguided and would be ineffective. (How many SRO hotels/beer vendors exist downtown compared to 15 years ago? How bad is the problem of public intoxication and annoying panhandlers compared to 15 years ago?)
Anon 8:45
"Getting rid of the drunks and bringing the building back to its glory is pretty much what is needed."
No kidding. But why not start with bringing the Avenue building back to its original glory?
Or the old Clarendon Hotel/A&B Sound
Or the old St. Charles Hotel (hey it's bar is closed... should be no sweat)
Or the Union Bank
Or the Mitchell-Copp building
Or the Ryan Block
The Answer - Not financially feasible.
There is a demand for office and housing of all type downtown.
But the cost to rehab exceeds the costs to purchase or rent. This is starting to become better understood, finally.
The development agencies spend years banging their heads trying to find the financing (grants) and to ID the private sector wanting to take the risk.
The CV and the Forks of the world have yet to figure it out:
1. The development agencies need to do it themselves when no-one from the private sector comes forward. If they are afraid of the risk, time to shutt er down.
2. There are certain design and land use principles that they need to follow, mandatory, no exceptions.
3. Building projects need to be part of a greater plan for the area.
4. They need a financial tool that will cover this gap. And I would only provide this financing if number 2 and 3 above were met.
The city development agencies really need to figure it out, step it up already.
Total agreement ^^
A&B Sound - owner does not want to sell. And has no interest in investingmore money to make it easier to lease. Solution - City need to expropriate.
Or the old St. Charles Hotel - Owner has no clue what he is doing, and yes the numbers don't work.
Or the Union Bank. RRC has this tied up. And $$ are being lined up. Be patient. This will be a beauty.
Or the Mitchell-Copp building - The Forks owns this one. They have some plans and idea. But they lack the risk and ability to think big. Above answer says it all. The fact that it is at least owned by a downtown agency is good.
Or the Ryan Block - The city screwed this up. They should have just taken the building as per the by-law and be done with it. Now its just going to be a parakde.
Every property has its own set off issues.
The game would be a lot easier for everyone if the comments above were ever to become law.
(I am Anon1)
Yes, those buildings need to be full - I'd be the first to agree, and the first to say that the downtown agencies have done little *intelligently* or effectively to change that. But I don't think a genuine surge of recovery will happen in any meaningful way until downtown feels safer.
The most common comment by far that I hear against downtown from people who WANT to be here is about percieved and real safety concerns, usually to do with drunks wandering the streets, panhandling or otherwise. And I don't blame the complainers.
To the post above that said that Portage Place is a no go zone, I just can't agree. I am in there on average a dozen times a week, and while drug activity has moved around the mall, it always did - it's still there, as ever.
so if the downtown is safer more people will come?
That is crazy. Downtown is safeer than Polo Park.
Give people a reason they will come.
The waterfront is a reason, people came.
The condo's in the Exchange, none left.
Red Rive College is a reason, students want more.
MEC came, people go all the time
MTS Centre came - people are coming in droves.
All the arts and cultural stuff that occurs. People come, every night.
Safety is not the issue.
More reasons for people to come, and more reasons for people to meander longer, is the reason.
The Empire where there were shootings... guess what new bar packed every weekend.
The facts are the facts.
Get over talking about safety and start developing more reasons.
AMEN BROTHER.
http://www.downtownwinnipegbiz.com/blog/index.cfm/General%20Blogging
I think the BIZ Watch are doing a great job.
Much more than you.
I have study in Canada and i am working in a Hotel part time. I am studying and work also in Canada.
work and study
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